10 Dec
2021
10 Dec
'21
6:47 p.m.
Lars> I think we revolve around the same basic problem: is there anything
called 'abstraction' beyond instances of abstract cognition?
Yes. Those things are called "patterns". And the formal study of
patterns is called "mathematics". And the foundation for cognition in
every living thing from bacteria to humans is the perception of patterns.
And a pattern is a simplified image with some of the detail omitted. Those
simplifications are called "diagrams". The simplest diagrams are called
"graphs".
Lars> I wouldn't (and nobody could) know what this would be, as anytime
one or any assumed alien looks or thinks about it, it would just be an
instance of their cognition, or an instance of a mneme (if you think in
terms of memory/thought processes).
No to the first part of that sentence. And yes to the second part.
There is something fundamental that is common to all forms of cognition on
planet earth: simplified perception. Since aliens that evolved on any
planet in any galaxy in the universe would also need some form of
perception, a reasonable assumption is that their cognition is based on a
simplified version of their perception.
Since everything in our universe is based on the same physics and
chemistry, it's very likely that any kind of biology and any kinds of
patterns the aliens may encounter would have some similarities in the
patterns they perceive. Therefore, their cognition is likely to be based
on simplified patterns that have some similarity to the patterns that
scientists have observed on earth, our solar system, and our galaxy.
Lars> In the cognitive sciences (as I explain in my book), scientists more
and more start studying the workings of cognitive development and evolution
instead of thinking of language and logic...
That's a good start. But I suggest that you go to a more fundamental
level. Perception is more fundamental to all living things than any kind
of human cognition. Images are a good start for anything that has eyes.
But structures are more fundamental for sentient beings without eyes. And
chemical distributions are more fundamental for single-celled beings.
For bacteria, a important feature of their perception enables them to swim
upstream in a glucose gradient. that implies that chemistry plus plus a
spatial direction is the most primitive form. And that can be mapped to a
simple kind of pattern.
Conclusion: patterns are fundamental to perception, and the simplest
patterns are directed graphs with labels that indicate good or bad
directions. That would be the simplest and most universal basis for
cognition.
Can anyone think of anything simpler or more fundamental?
John
10 Dec
10 Dec
8:09 p.m.
Just a naive intuition in this grand reductionistic game:
Perception and action on that perception requires, it seems to me, chemical
reactions; binding, bonding, that sort of thing.
Through that lens, some ability to communicate on a very primitive level
seems, um, more fundamental.
Over
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 9:48 AM John F Sowa <sowa(a)bestweb.net> wrote:
Lars> I think we revolve around the same basic
problem: is there anything
called 'abstraction' beyond instances of abstract cognition?
Yes. Those things are called "patterns". And the formal study of
patterns is called "mathematics". And the foundation for cognition in
every living thing from bacteria to humans is the perception of patterns.
And a pattern is a simplified image with some of the detail omitted. Those
simplifications are called "diagrams". The simplest diagrams are called
"graphs".
Lars> I wouldn't (and nobody could) know what this would be, as anytime
one or any assumed alien looks or thinks about it, it would just be an
instance of their cognition, or an instance of a mneme (if you think in
terms of memory/thought processes).
No to the first part of that sentence. And yes to the second part.
There is something fundamental that is common to all forms of cognition on
planet earth: simplified perception. Since aliens that evolved on any
planet in any galaxy in the universe would also need some form of
perception, a reasonable assumption is that their cognition is based on a
simplified version of their perception.
Since everything in our universe is based on the same physics and
chemistry, it's very likely that any kind of biology and any kinds of
patterns the aliens may encounter would have some similarities in the
patterns they perceive. Therefore, their cognition is likely to be based
on simplified patterns that have some similarity to the patterns that
scientists have observed on earth, our solar system, and our galaxy.
Lars> In the cognitive sciences (as I explain in my book), scientists more
and more start studying the workings of cognitive development and evolution
instead of thinking of language and logic...
That's a good start. But I suggest that you go to a more fundamental
level. Perception is more fundamental to all living things than any kind
of human cognition. Images are a good start for anything that has eyes.
But structures are more fundamental for sentient beings without eyes. And
chemical distributions are more fundamental for single-celled beings.
For bacteria, a important feature of their perception enables them to swim
upstream in a glucose gradient. that implies that chemistry plus plus a
spatial direction is the most primitive form. And that can be mapped to a
simple kind of pattern.
Conclusion: patterns are fundamental to perception, and the simplest
patterns are directed graphs with labels that indicate good or bad
directions. That would be the simplest and most universal basis for
cognition.
Can anyone think of anything simpler or more fundamental?
John
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9:18 p.m.
Hi Jack .... wonderful intuition (insight) that keeps open the question of
how semiosis emerges (or evolves).
Hope to hear more from you.
Bob
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 2:10 PM Jack Park <jackpark(a)topicquests.org> wrote:
Just a naive intuition in this grand reductionistic
game:
Perception and action on that perception requires, it seems to me,
chemical reactions; binding, bonding, that sort of thing.
Through that lens, some ability to communicate on a very primitive level
seems, um, more fundamental.
Over
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 9:48 AM John F Sowa <sowa(a)bestweb.net> wrote:
--
• To understand the meaning of life, we need to understand the life of
meaning.
• Each word is a window on all meaning, if we can only open it.
• Community grows as we communicate, honing our words till their meanings
tap into the rich voice of our full human potential.
Lars> I think we revolve around the same basic
problem: is there anything
called 'abstraction' beyond instances of abstract cognition?
Yes. Those things are called "patterns". And the formal study of
patterns is called "mathematics". And the foundation for cognition in
every living thing from bacteria to humans is the perception of patterns.
And a pattern is a simplified image with some of the detail omitted. Those
simplifications are called "diagrams". The simplest diagrams are called
"graphs".
Lars> I wouldn't (and nobody could) know what this would be, as anytime
one or any assumed alien looks or thinks about it, it would just be an
instance of their cognition, or an instance of a mneme (if you think in
terms of memory/thought processes).
No to the first part of that sentence. And yes to the second part.
There is something fundamental that is common to all forms of cognition
on planet earth: simplified perception. Since aliens that evolved on any
planet in any galaxy in the universe would also need some form of
perception, a reasonable assumption is that their cognition is based on a
simplified version of their perception.
Since everything in our universe is based on the same physics and
chemistry, it's very likely that any kind of biology and any kinds of
patterns the aliens may encounter would have some similarities in the
patterns they perceive. Therefore, their cognition is likely to be based
on simplified patterns that have some similarity to the patterns that
scientists have observed on earth, our solar system, and our galaxy.
Lars> In the cognitive sciences (as I explain in my book), scientists
more and more start studying the workings of cognitive development and
evolution instead of thinking of language and logic...
That's a good start. But I suggest that you go to a more fundamental
level. Perception is more fundamental to all living things than any kind
of human cognition. Images are a good start for anything that has eyes.
But structures are more fundamental for sentient beings without eyes. And
chemical distributions are more fundamental for single-celled beings.
For bacteria, a important feature of their perception enables them to
swim upstream in a glucose gradient. that implies that chemistry plus
plus a spatial direction is the most primitive form. And that can be
mapped to a simple kind of pattern.
Conclusion: patterns are fundamental to perception, and the simplest
patterns are directed graphs with labels that indicate good or bad
directions. That would be the simplest and most universal basis for
cognition.
Can anyone think of anything simpler or more fundamental?
John
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9:26 p.m.
Bob,
Thanks for that observation. "cataloging" semiosis processes is a mountain
I'd love to climb.
I once proposed to the principal at my kids' grammar school that they work
on a curriculum, of the project-based learning portfolio kind
where, each year, each learner is tasked with enriching a model of
communication, starting first where they are, e.g. 1st grade and how they
communicate, then probe in both directions, backwards towards the lowest,
and forwards towards the highest levels of modeling what
communication is about.
Cheers,
Jack
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 12:19 PM Robert Parks <rqparks(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Jack .... wonderful intuition (insight) that keeps
open the question of
how semiosis emerges (or evolves).
Hope to hear more from you.
Bob
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 2:10 PM Jack Park <jackpark(a)topicquests.org>
wrote:
Just a naive intuition in this grand
reductionistic game:
Perception and action on that perception requires, it seems to me,
chemical reactions; binding, bonding, that sort of thing.
Through that lens, some ability to communicate on a very primitive level
seems, um, more fundamental.
Over
On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 9:48 AM John F Sowa <sowa(a)bestweb.net> wrote:
--
• To understand the meaning of life, we need to understand the life of
meaning.
• Each word is a window on all meaning, if we can only open it.
• Community grows as we communicate, honing our words till their meanings
tap into the rich voice of our full human potential.
Lars> I think we revolve around the same basic
problem: is there
anything called 'abstraction' beyond instances of abstract cognition?
Yes. Those things are called "patterns". And the formal study of
patterns is called "mathematics". And the foundation for cognition in
every living thing from bacteria to humans is the perception of patterns.
And a pattern is a simplified image with some of the detail omitted. Those
simplifications are called "diagrams". The simplest diagrams are called
"graphs".
Lars> I wouldn't (and nobody could) know what this would be, as anytime
one or any assumed alien looks or thinks about it, it would just be an
instance of their cognition, or an instance of a mneme (if you think in
terms of memory/thought processes).
No to the first part of that sentence. And yes to the second part.
There is something fundamental that is common to all forms of cognition
on planet earth: simplified perception. Since aliens that evolved on any
planet in any galaxy in the universe would also need some form of
perception, a reasonable assumption is that their cognition is based on a
simplified version of their perception.
Since everything in our universe is based on the same physics and
chemistry, it's very likely that any kind of biology and any kinds of
patterns the aliens may encounter would have some similarities in the
patterns they perceive. Therefore, their cognition is likely to be based
on simplified patterns that have some similarity to the patterns that
scientists have observed on earth, our solar system, and our galaxy.
Lars> In the cognitive sciences (as I explain in my book), scientists
more and more start studying the workings of cognitive development and
evolution instead of thinking of language and logic...
That's a good start. But I suggest that you go to a more fundamental
level. Perception is more fundamental to all living things than any kind
of human cognition. Images are a good start for anything that has eyes.
But structures are more fundamental for sentient beings without eyes. And
chemical distributions are more fundamental for single-celled beings.
For bacteria, a important feature of their perception enables them to
swim upstream in a glucose gradient. that implies that chemistry plus
plus a spatial direction is the most primitive form. And that can be
mapped to a simple kind of pattern.
Conclusion: patterns are fundamental to perception, and the simplest
patterns are directed graphs with labels that indicate good or bad
directions. That would be the simplest and most universal basis for
cognition.
Can anyone think of anything simpler or more fundamental?
John
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3 comments
3 participants
participants (3)
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Jack Park -
John F Sowa -
Robert Parks