On Feb 3, 2024, at 1:14 PM, Michael Shapiro <pooyin@earthlink.net> wrote:

To all participants in this discussion of interpretants I would like to recommend that they take a look at my discussion of markedness in one or more of my books, the latest being The Logic of Lasnguage (New York: Springer, 2022). Markedness in language is the epitomre of the relationship between sign and object.

-----Original Message-----
From: Edwina Taborsky <taborsky@primus.ca>
Sent: Feb 3, 2024 7:46 AM
To: Edwina Taborsky <taborsky@primus.ca>
Cc: John F Sowa <sowa@bestweb.net>, Peirce List <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu>, CG <cg@lists.iccs-conference.org>
Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Interpretants

 

Again, if I might continue with the importance of the hexadic semiosic process, in that it enables complex adaptation…within interaction  

 

That is - the reality of two Object relations, the Dynamic and the Immediate acknowledges that not all off the input data from the external interaction will be accepted by the capacity of the sign -vehicle and its representamen. And indeed, some of this data might be changed /affected by other input happening at the same time.

 

Then - the three Interpretants are vital.

 

The first one, the Immediate, confines the reaction to the internal experience of the individual. It goes no further. I think this is important - if we think of a disease - it would confine the infection to one individual. If we think of another situation - it would confine the sensation of the experience to one individual [ rather than mob hysteria]. 

 

The next one, the Dynamic, is important - since it produces an external response to the input data and brings in local ‘observers’, so to speak, who treat this external Interfpretant as a Sign in itself. //something that they might react to. .

 

The last one, the Final - moves the response to a general, common one.

 

An example would be a sound heard by an individual in a group of monkeys. This one individual might only feel a subjective internal response [Immediae Interpretant] and other than that - continue gathering fruit]. But - it might instead, produce an external result [ the monkey would scream]. This would act as its own triadic Sign to the other monkeys….who would recognize it as an Alarm.  Over time - this particular sound by the monkey is understood, always, as an Alarm.

 

That is - I think the function of the three Interpretants, nuanced as they are, is vital.

 

Edwina

On Feb 2, 2024, at 7:05 PM, Edwina Taborsky <taborsky@primus.ca> wrote:

John, list

 

1] I don’t know what you mean by ‘His Commentary’…in your sentence 

But in his important analyses of those subjects, I have not seen him show how his theory of interpretants aided him in the discovery and formulation of his commentary.

 

2] And I don’t know what you mean by ’that insight’ in your sentence: 

Can you (or any other reader of P-List) find any important (or just useful) example of an insight in which Peirce's theory of interpretants helped discover that insight?

3] I briefly outlined why I think that the the hexadic semosic process is capable of generative development of matter and mind.  That is, 

 

3-a] the reality of two object relations, with one, the DO,  being input from an external source, and the other, the IO, being the input that the sign-vehicle is equipped to accept as input [ a dog can smell better than a human; an owl can see better; a…etc etc]…

 

Along with the reality that input from multiple DOs might be happening at the same time..

 

3-b; the reality that the mediative process, theRepresentamen GROWS in its mediative capacity by learning, by exposure, by..even, chance [ see Peirce’s three methods of evolution: tychasm,  anancasm, agapasm]

 

3c- the reality of THREE Interpretant relations - 

 

with one being strictly a local, subjective, individual result..[the II] - an action that generates a potentiality for change; 

 

and the more complex next one [DI]  being individual but external to the individual, which moves the result of the original DO, IO input it into an actual existentially…that affects OTHER sign-vehicles 

 

….and the next one [FI] being the communal non-local non-individual generality where new laws are developed. 

 

That is - my view is that this whole process enables adaptive complexity to develop. An example could be where a bird tries to eat a seed, which has a hard shell [DO]; and what little it can extract from this shell [ IO] …is processed by its digestive system [Representamen in a mode of 3ns, 2ns and 1ns] , which, possibly lacking in nutrients from this small amount produces only a small nutrition result, [II] , but this small result forces the  bird’s body to develop a stronger digestion [to digest shells[ and even, these chemicals act to strengthen its beak…[DI]..and this reaction  becomes common among the local bird population [FI].

 

My point is that both the number of interactions that take place - and that includes all three interpretant which I think are vital - , along with the capacities of the three categorical modes - are basic to complex adaptive systems. 

 

Edwina

 

 

 

 

 

On Feb 2, 2024, at 5:22 PM, John F Sowa <sowa@bestweb.net> wrote:

Edwina,

 

I strongly agree with you that Peirce's analyses of those subjects are extremely valuable.  I also believe that his analyses are at the forefront of 21st C cognitive science in those areas.  That is a conclusion of my recent article, of which I recently sent the completed Section 7 to these lists.

 

But in his important analyses of those subjects, I have not seen him show how his theory of interpretants aided him in the discovery and formulation of his commentary.

 

Can you (or any other reader of P-List) find any important (or just useful) example of an insight in which Peirce's theory of interpretants helped discover that insight?

 

John

 

 

---

From: "Edwina Taborsky" <edwina.taborsky@gmail.com>
Sent: 2/2/24 5:01 PM
To: John F Sowa <sowa@bestweb.net>
Cc: Peirce List <peirce-l@list.iupui.edu>, CG <cg@lists.iccs-conference.org>
Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] Interpretants

 

John, list

 

I wouldn’t say that the Interpretants are a muddled uselessness.I think they play a vital role.  I think, however,  that attempting  to find exact and singular meanings of terms is not very functional.

 

I use Peirce primarily for analysis of both biological and societal systems - 

 

I find him extremely perceptive, above all, with his analysis of the Categories- The reality of ‘modes of Being’  is extremely difficult to find in other scientific  or philosophical outlines - ie - Most analyses of ‘matter’ view it as almost inert ‘stuff’ and focuses more on mechanical interactions or puzzles over quantum ‘weirdness’. But - to outline concepts of ‘feeling’ [ and even protoplasm feels]; the concept of reaction - and - the concept of habit formation - all three categories found as universal - I personally find this very functional in explaining both biological systems and societal systems. . 

 

Then - I find his focus on the multiple nodal sites of the semiotic process to be useful; and I view semiotic processes as operative in all of matter, both physical and biological and in societal systems. That is, I full yagree with Peirce’s view that the whole universe is composed of signs [plural]; and indeed, is a vast semiosic process. 

 

So- I find the hexadic semiosic process very useful: that is, the interactional information functionality of an external relation of the sign vehicle  to its environment [ which relation becomes the Dynamic Object]. And then, the internal nature of the dats from this DO - which is commonly quite different from the ‘full nature’ of the DO - ie, the Immediate Object. Then, the Representamen as mediation. Accepting the input data and analyzing it. 

 

And then- the three Interpretants - with the Internal Interpretant as the individual’s local subjective reaction; the external - or Dynamic Interpretent as the Individual’s more objective reaction…and finally - the acknowledgment by Peirce that there could be a commonly developed interpretation of these stimuli.  That is - the role of the individual within the community. 

 

And of course, all of these ’nodes’ can also function within the three categories, which increases the complexity of the semiosic function. 

 

- I DO see a very vital role for the Interpretants. ..in enabling deviation from the data of the Dynamic Object - and enabling adaptation of the sign vehicle and the development of new Habits [held within the representamen of the sign-vehicle. ].   That is - the fact that there are three interepetants, moving from the immediate local perception of the input data , to an external objective result [ does the effect of the input data as expressed...have any functional result? ..and then..on to the larger collective result - does this function to CHANGE THE HABITS OF THE REPRESENTAMEN?

 

Edwina

On Feb 2, 2024, at 4:30 PM, John F Sowa <sowa@bestweb.net> wrote:

Edwina, Jon AS, Jon A, Helmut, List,

 

Peirce made immense contributions to 21st century research in all the branches of cognitive science.  But he never found  any informative or useful applications of his writings on interpretants.  He was struggling with the ideas up to the end.  

 

Peirce scholars never built any extensions to his writings on interpretants because Peirce himself was unable to produce a useful system.  He couldn't convince anybody, not even himself.  See the end of this note for the citation and quotations from the Stanford article.  Conclusion:  Neither Peirce nor anybody  else ever developed the theory to make useful predictions about anything.

 

In short, I wouldn't say that Peirce's writings on interpretants are wrong -- just that they are so vague that nobody has been able to use them to do or say anything useful.

 

Recommendation:  Let his writings on interpretants rest in peace (RIP), and focus on the great body of work that is at the forefront  of the latest developments in cognitive science.

 

John

 

 

---

From: "Edwina Taborsky" <edwina.taborsky@gmail.com>

 

John, list

 

Regardless of the terminology, which I acknowledge obscures the analysis, I think that one can conclude that Peirce’s view is that there are three Interpretants. One is Individual Internal; the next is  Individual External, and the last one is Collective External.  And- each of these three ’nodes’ can be in any one of the three modal categories.

 

That’s how I see it.

 

Edwina

On Jan 31, 2024, at 6:37 PM, John F Sowa <sowa@bestweb.net> wrote:

I rarely comment on discussions of interpretants, because nobody, not even Peirce, had a complete, coherent, and decisive theory of interpretants.  Perhaps some Peirce scholars have developed theories that go beyond what Peirce wrote. That is possible, but nobody can claim that their theories are what Peirce himself had intended.

 

On these issues, I recommend the article by Albert Atkin in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, first version in 2006 and major update in 2022:  https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/peirce-semiotics/

 

Atkin has a thorough list of references for anybody who intends to study this topic.  See below for some quotations from the end of the article that show how incomplete, indefinite, and uncertain Peirce's own writings happen to be.

 

I don't want to discourage anybody from discussing interpretants.  But since Peirce himself was uncertain and indecisive, nobody can claim that their interpretation is what Peirce had intended.

 

John

_______________

 

As is common with all of Peirce’s work in philosophy, various changes in terminology and subtleties with accompanying neologisms occur from one piece of work to the next. His work on interpretants is no different. At various points in his final accounts of signs, Peirce describes the division of interpretants as being: immediate, dynamic and final; or as emotional, energetic, and logical; or as naïve, rogate and normal; or as intentional, effective and communicational; or even destinate, effective and explicit. As Liszka (1990, 20) notes, “the received view in Peirce scholarship suggests that the divisions of interpretant into immediate, dynamic, and final are archetypal, all other divisions being relatively synonymous with these categories.” There are, however, some dissenters from this view.

In discussing the interpretant, Peirce describes one of the trichotomies above as follows:

In all cases [the Interpretant] includes feelings; for there must, at least, be a sense of comprehending the meaning of the sign. If it includes more than mere feeling, it must evoke some kind of effort. It may include something besides, which, for the present, may be vaguely called “thought”. I term these three kinds of interpretant the “emotional”, the “energetic”, and the “logical” interpretants. (EP2. 409)

. . .

 

Peirce describes the dynamic interpretant as deriving its character from action (CP8 .315 1904), but later says, “action cannot be a logical interpretant” (CP5 .491 1906). This seems to make the two inconsistent. (See Liszka (1990, 21) for more on the problems with Fitzgerald’s claim). Moreover, this inconsistency seems to suggest a problem for Short’s view since his account also suggests that the dynamic interpretant should include the logical interpretant as a subdivision (Short 1981, 213). Short, however, claims textual support for his own view from instances where Peirce mentions the emotional/energetic/logical trichotomy alongside the apparently separate claim that signs have three interpretants. (Short sites (CP8 .333 1904) and (CP4 .536 1906). Short takes this as suggesting that the two should be treated as different and distinct trichotomies. (Short 2004, 235).

How far the textual evidence on the matter will prove decisive is unclear, especially given the fragmentary nature of Peirce’s final work on signs. However, one or two things militate in favor of the “received view”. First, Peirce is notorious for experimenting with terminology, especially when trying to pin down his own ideas, or describe the same phenomenon from different angles. Second, it is unclear why trichotomies like the intentional/effectual/communicational should count as terminological experiments whilst the emotional/energetic/logical counts as a distinct division. And finally, there is little provision in Peirce’s projected sixty-six classes of signs for the kind of additional classifications imposed by further subdivisions of the interpretant. (For more on this discussion see, Liszka 1990 and 1996; Fitzgerald 1966; Lalor 1997; Short 1981, 1996, and 2004).

 

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